Jonathan Jackson: What's
going on everybody?

I am Jonathan.

Welcome to another episode of Due
Dilly I'm here with my cohost, Carl.

Carl Joseph-Black: Hey.

Hey.

What's going on y'all?

Jonathan Jackson: Today we
have a very special episode.

I'm excited about this one.

We've been doing a lot of research
and it's all about beauty.

Before we start, I need to lay this out.

We scoped out the whole season, and this
personally is one of my favorite episodes

because I believe beauty as an industry
is one of the clearest examples of an

environment that has been enmeshed with
creators and the creator economy before

it had a name and before it has become
commercialized in the way it is now.

So my hope with this episode is one,
you get a sense if you're not familiar

with beauty of what's going on, if you
are, which many of you probably will be,

that you hear some of your favorites or
some new favorites, and that two, you

understand how integral creators are
for moving product, building community,

establishing brands, and driving really
big businesses with outsized impact.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah, man,
I'm excited for this too.

As you know, like I'm deeply entrenched
in the, , beauty industry, whether it's

clients I represent or businesses I own,.

It is really dope to not only dig
into the current day structure of the

industry, but also take just like a
long step back, a long trip, a long

road back to how, , the industry is
developed through the creator economy

since we been online doing this stuff.

And just how expansive it is.

So I guess my question for you
is, when we're talking about

beauty, what are we talking about?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, so I, I think it's
important to, to clarify what the industry

is and also what comprises it, because a
lot of times you can say something, but

there's a lot of things inside of it.

So if we talk about beauty
and personal care, the size.

Number kind of fluctuates, but it's
around 677 billion in the US and it's

saying that it'll exceed it about
800 billion in the coming years.

The United States itself generates 105
billion in beauty revenue, which makes

it the world's largest beauty market.

So that may or may not maintain itself
given what's going on in the world.

But for the purpose of this
episode, a lot of the things

we're talking about are domestic.

, I think beauty's interesting because
over 50% of global beauty sales are

driven by social and e-commerce channels.

So that's very, very important
because what's happening online is

affecting what's happening in person.

So when you think about retail
footprints or you think about popups

or you think about what a new brand
takes in a market where 50% of the

sales are driven digitally, it is
one of the most competitive spaces.

You could do anything at all.

If you're not nice, you can't
come in the kitchen at all.

You have to be really, really, really,
really clear, and you have to be

in it for the long haul to build
something that's sustained and you

can execute on, which we'll get into.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

For me also being that so much of
the products are sold digitally for

me, it also, I always look at the
beauty industry as the first mover

for the tactics and strategies that
brands actually later on go and do.

Because that's usually for me, the
forefront of like product selling, where

people are like, Hey, you know what?

We're gonna try the most audacious
things we're gonna bring into play.

The most audacious folks., A lot of
different creators came up through

that space trying different things,
communicating with audiences differently.

, And I think what has happened is
through the beauty industry, a lot

of other industries that sell product
online actually have , picked apart

some of the things that they've
done really well and have actually

applied them to other industries.

So yeah.

This is how exciting, bro.

, Where do you wanna, where do
you wanna start this convo?

, Do we wanna really kick into.

The history of the space in
terms of e-commerce first,

or how do you wanna drive it?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I think
it's important to layer on the

tactics and the strategies are
not new that they are remixed.

And so I think oftentimes what
happens in beauty happens, to your

point, downstream, the industry.

So in New York right now, I don't know
how long it's running for, but the

AI company, Anthropic has a build out
in the West Village, , their first

ever, , at least on the East coast that
I know of, physical brand activation.

And so they have this
cafe area that they redid.

You go in, it's chill, it's relaxed,
but if you're from New York, you've been

around the city, you know that beauty
pop-up thing is a rite of passage.

Glossier was doing it
for a really long time.

Fashion week comes around, you
know what's going on downtown.

So I, I think that sort of a consumer
technology company is looking around

and we'd be lying to ourselves if
we didn't consider that influence

is something you don't get credit
for, you just have children from.

And so beauty has birthed a lot of
kids out here in terms of the types of

physical activations, even the digital
trend lines that, that you start to see.

So I think part of this is also
talking about the creator influence.

And so there's kind of four different
types of environments that creators,

I think, provide outsize impact in.

One is as sellers, so that's people
moving product through recommendations.

Partnerships.

Um, I read a stat when I was researching
this at around, 68% of consumers

say that they buy actual beauty and
care products via recommendation.

So a recommendation is incredibly
valuable for a beauty product because

your skin is your biggest organ.

So if it doesn't work, you could
have an actual medical problem,

but if it does work, it could
actually solve something for you.

And that actual through
play is really valuable.

But when it's bad, it's awful.

, You have makers, so people that are
launching their own lines and products.

We'll talk about that in a second,
but that's also what we're talking

about in the creator economy.

Now, people launching courses,
brands, businesses, beauty

creators, influences have been
doing that for a decade plus now.

So that's not a new
environment or understanding.

You got tastemakers.

So people who set, , the trends who
describe what the moment is, who give.

Cultural, historical, , even
commercial context for how a brand

shows up, what they're doing, how
long they've been doing it for.

And so that's like an
intelligentsia around the

industry, , like any other industry.

So those are cultural critics.

And then you have consumers, people who
want to use the product, who feel like it

helped them, who feel like they're a part
of it, who have a kind of affinity to it.

And if you bridge all those things,
that's the four parts of how the

creator influence, , continues to expand

Carl Joseph-Black: When you
break those categories down.

Like I think about so many
legends that have pushed

beauty products forward, right?

Whether it's actual creators
themselves that went and.

Made their own products.

Jonathan Jackson: Mm-hmm.

Carl Joseph-Black: Or creators that went
and found new innovative products or

found solutions to particular issues with
whether it's your skin, hair, X, Y, Z,

and became just like evangelists for it.

, Or just , different types of creators
that just set the tone for how, not

only how to market those products, but
also this particular brand in general.

And then also just like all the
different strategies that certain

beauty companies actually did.

In terms of building audiences and
having audiences themselves actually

become the evangelists in that space.

And I, I think that's another thing
that I'm excited to talk about today.

'cause I know that we're gonna probably.

Have the ability to break down different
brands and how they played, how they

not only played in the marketplace,
but also how they innovated there.

And also just the like types of
distinction, you know what I mean?

And obviously we are, we're guys
who use specific beauty products and

we're folks who admire beauty brands.

But, , I, I don't wear makeup and I
don't think you wear makeup either.

So there's gonna be some limitation I
believe , in terms of our understanding

of how these products connect.

But I don't know.

I look forward to us trying our best
to communicate that in this episode.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I
think it's important to talk

about the categories too.

'cause I, I think sometimes because.

There's so much that comprises
beauty as a noun, depending on

what you use most consistently,
that's your definition of beauty.

And so if you think about it, skincare
takes up about 50% of the market.

And so skincare is stuff that's
doing sort of brightening, hydrating,

soothing, smoothing, protecting.

So that's anything from,
you know, hylaronic acid to

SPF 50.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah, nice.

Jonathan Jackson: Those
are beauty products,

Carl Joseph-Black: Niacinamide, all
these different types of, topicals , that

kind of either enrich a part of your
body , or at least creates an enriching

experience to how , , get ready.

Yeah.

So , it's really broad, but I do
know that there are certain things

that are folks like favorites

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

Carl Joseph-Black: To kind of get into.

So I know that , we'll, we, we
wanna make sure we do the episode

justice by covering those two.

But, , I guess let's break
down like the landscape.

So you mentioned their skincare.,
I also mentioned this makeup, but

this also includes fragrances.

This also includes men's grooming.

, And I guess anything bath and body.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

Carl Joseph-Black: Is there
anything else I'm missing

Jonathan Jackson: here?

There's haircare, so the US
typical usually leads that market.

, There's nails and then
there's also device and tools.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: So if you think
about like the things you use, so

, that's razors, that's , blow dryers,
that's anything that essentially is

associated also is comprised when we
talk about the size of the market.

Carl Joseph-Black: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Jackson: And then there's
also personal care you could, that

can get technical, so that's oral
hygiene, things like that can actually

get roped into beauty products.

If you think about a consumer
brand like a p and g,

Carl Joseph-Black: yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: They own actual
categories across the chain from

toothpaste all the way to shampoo.

All the way to conditioner.

And so that can sometimes externally
in the market description be

comprised as beauty, internally as
an organization or even to consumers.

Those products sit in different places.

Yeah.

But when we talk about the size
of a market for the context

of our conversation, those
things are comprised to it.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

And, , and that's super helpful.

'cause I think what makes this
conversation something that people

will appreciate is just like all
the different pockets that if they

were to want to engage in this
space that like exists for them.

Right.

, And I think part of the reason why
the entire industry is cutthroat is

'cause sometimes folks really try to.

You know, pin a definition in
a particular suite of products.

So it's like beauty is makeup, beauty
is this, beauty is that so, because

they see, let's say, really popular
creators in that space doing really well.

They want to compete in that space.

But I think what you have the opportunity
to do is to identify other categories

within this, you know, whole space and
say, Hey, you know what, like I'm actually

gonna go into haircare, or I'm actually
gonna go into the actual tools that we

use instead of actually trying to go
and, you know, build a particular type

of lip liner or something like that.

Right.

Or eyeliner.

, But I guess there are other
things that make this space.

Really cutthroat.

And some of the things that, that
I think through, when I think about

it being cutthroat, is the fact that
it's like consistently innovative.

Like people are always coming
up with new ideas and new.

So folks are consistently making
like new types of products and

marketing to new audiences.

I think about like when Fancy
Beauty came into the space, right?

Like before that it was really
difficult for people to find

so many different shades.

Of foundation for themselves, right?

, If you are a particular skin color,
like it was just , really hard

for you to find foundation that
matched the rest of your skin.

So maybe you're putting makeup on
and your face like literally looks

completely different than your hands.

Jonathan Jackson: Mm-hmm.

,
Carl Joseph-Black: And Rihanna
said, Hey, you know what?

, Let me actually expand the shade
palette to be like way more inclusive.

, What are , some ways that
you've seen other brands like be

really creative in this space?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

I think it's also important to talk
about like the types of business,

because I actually think that the
type sometimes affects the creativity.

So Rihanna starting Fenty was,
she was clear about why she was

doing it, who she was doing it for.

There was no confusion.

And she's that play
consistently and that's helped.

Fenty grow and then walk itself into
the sort of deal structure she's had

and has been incredibly successful
and is highly valuable for what that

audience actually brings and the kind
of products that are, that it's able

to move and the way it's able to move.

I think that outside of that, , you have
more recently the Haley Bieber Rhode Skin,

, example, which interestingly enough, she
launched in 2022 with three products.

And so when you talk about a
celebrity brand, but also the kind

of discipline required to know what
you're gonna go to market with and

then how you're going to go to market.

And with only three options to buy,
you have to be locked in with the

people who are gonna buy it because
there's only three purchase points.

And so you can buy 'em all together,
you can buy 'em individually,

and they eventually expanded.

, I believe out to around eight or 10.

The kind of following that has
been developed by having a person

with influence or an audience
products that audience says

they want and is responsive to.

And then a hands-on relationship
where you are having a direct to

audience conversation about what
you're doing when the product's

dropping you using the product.

All of these sort of examples allow
that to become a personal relationship.

, I think if we're gonna have a really
honest conversation about kind of depth

of audience following, , and clarity
of purpose, then, it goes without

saying that, in my estimation, Ami Colé

Did that better than anybody?

In terms of the clarity of who it's
for, why it exists, who it's meant

to touch, and the kind of community
that was built and supported it.

I don't think we've, to my understanding
and in my research and as a fan,

like seeing something like that with
that kind of global resonance, with

that kind of speed and that kind of
moment, with that kind of time horizon.

So I think that is just something to
call out that being that specific about

who you're for is always a light post.

Carl Joseph-Black: What's, so
amazing about what Ami Colé

did to me is how they turned.

Their entire community into evangelists.

Like it is very rare on the internet to,

to see so many people like really love a
product and have that product in a real

way, become a part of their identity.

To me, it was like, yo, did
Dharria like make Apple?

Like, that's how I felt like it was
this idea that if you used the product,

there was such a level of belonging
that came with using the product.

It was, it was a beautiful form of
creating identity, and making space and.

In an industry that,, for that
particular community, , doesn't really

like, speak extremely well to, , it's
a word shout out to that team.

Jonathan Jackson: I think also,
the celebrity brand we just talked

about, the community focus aspect,
I think it is important to talk

about also product forward stuff.

So in my cursory research, and, I
had heard her name before, but this

definitely solidified even a different
depth of creator Pat McGrath labs.

So Pat McGrath is the foremost
makeup artist on planet earth.

If you are talking about makeup and
you're talking about a premier show,

you're talking about Pat McGrath.

She's done everything,
done everyone's face.

Is widely regarded as an innovator, like
a technical innovator in, in sort of the

art of doing makeup and the science of it.

, In 2024, I think it was the Mason
Margiela show, she debuted this glass skin

look where essentially the models were
walking down and there was like a sheen

on their face that looked like glass.

And it just went like super viral.

Like people were just losing their minds
'cause they'd never seen, how do you

get, how do you do makeup that makes you
face have that kind of texture, tonality?

What are the products?

And so in response she ended
up doing Instagram lives

talking about the formulation.

And so there's also an expertise
element to some of the positioning

of a certain brand of the person
behind it is a practitioner.

As a practitioner, they bring sort of a
robustness to how you are talking about

the product, how you are partnering.

I think she just launched a line with,
Louis Vuitton and, , this year and,

that price point is reflective of that.

It's much more, it's expensive in terms
of when you look at kind of mass market,

, it's on , the higher end, but you are
secure because you know who made it

and you know that they are practicing.

They're, , in the arena,
so to speak still.

And so I think from my context, I
think that's really unique for a

business that is focused on creators
and immersing people in how easy

it is to do something or how.

The quality behind the thing, right?

She's got lines of brushes,
she's got lines of shades.

And so her explaining that as a premier
makeup artist, like how to make you

yourself look like this or how simple
it could be or how much easier you could

have it if you used x, I think is just
a very unique way to frame the product.

And she's consistently sort of on
some of these shows talking about why

she's doing it, how she's doing it.

So there's always an explainer element to
how do you get that look, which I think is

also part of building community as well.

Like it's not just that like someone
on the runway did it, it's that you can

do it in your bathroom and that like
creates a level I think of achievement

in some respects that like it's not
just for that person, it's also for you.

And if you have the products,
you too can actually have

that experience and come out.

Looking that way or having that
sort of confidence to do that.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah, and , even as a
founder, if you're somebody who wants to

get into this space, , you can actually
be someone who's a practitioner in this

space that can then go and build like
a very successful brand that then goes

and,, collaborates with larger brands
like Louis Vuitton, so on and so forth,

you don't necessarily have to have a
celebrity driven product, which is,

, typically, , the types of brands that,
get the most media attention because it's

related to, , a celebrity themselves.

. So I guess since we're on that right,
since we're covering both celebs

and practitioners that kind of go
and build these businesses, I guess

we should probably also talk about
how these things get built, right?

So , many different beauty brands
build themselves differently, but

from my experience as an attorney that
represents beauty brands, I've only

represented beauty brands that have
been bootstrapped and self-funded.

So typically they find, they go and
they find what they call a hero product.

Like this product is going to be
the product that differentiates

myself from the marketplace.

Um, whether it be a particular
soap, like I think about, um, like

a company like Honey Glow that just
has like a very special soap that

solves like a very unique problem
that many people have, or, um.

Or, you know, other brands that
say, Hey, maybe it's not one exact

product, but maybe it's like a
small suite of products mm-hmm.

That solve a particular unique
need in the marketplace.

Right?

So they typically do that, but then
they couple that with, at least from

my experience with a D two C approach,
like a direct to consumer approach.

Right.

Which, um, which is great for testing
your business, right, because.

You don't necessarily have to 'cause it,
it becomes a whole process when you say,

Hey, I'm gonna go and raise a bunch of
money, then I'm gonna go and do the thing,

and then I'm gonna go and sell the thing.

Then you go and sell the thing
and you realize people don't care.

What I find is that, at least from
my experience with working with

those types of founders, is that
they're like, yo, you know what?

I'm go in the lab, I'm
gonna cook something up.

This is what I think is gonna hit.

I'm gonna make sure that it meets all the
safety, you know, rags and I'm gonna push

product to market and see how people feel.

And by bootstrapping it that way,
you actually get to fail fast

and to determine what changes
you need to make to move forward.

I think the other beauty, of
that process is that you get to

maintain full creative control.

So one of the things that I find, and
I'll bring a honey glow again, , is

that when TikTok shop first went live.

They went D two C from there and they
were doing TikTok lives super early.

Yo, look, this is what the product does.

And they would have their friends come
over to the house and they're like, yo,

yo, y'all, this is what we're doing.

Da da da x, y, Z, ah, ah,
this is how the product works.

You wanna buy it?

Click this link right here, cop it,
send it right to your Crip, right?

Like it took time for other beauty brands
to consider TikTok Shop as a platform

for D two C, be before that folks are
just like, yeah, we're just gonna stick

with our websites and do our thing.

And that actually gets to not only show
proof of product, proof of concept, but

also it gets to then help you build your
own brand identity through that process.

Right?

So, so those are, , some of
the models that I've seen,

at least from my experience.

But how about you?

Jonathan Jackson: I judge the.

pitch competition last year that
was sponsored by Prosee Beauty.

So Prosee Beauty is a venture backed
company that does made to order beauty.

So their sort of offering to
the market is, everyone is

dynamic, everyone is unique.

So go to our website, answer some
questions, and we're gonna send you

custom formulations to your house
and you can get that as a one-off

or you can get a subscription.

And so to your point, to do something
like that, you need specific capital.

'cause that's an infrastructure and a
facility opportunity to fulfill that

and then reach people where they are.

What Prose has figured out is that
there is a select kind of consumer that

actually wants hyper-personalization.

That could be down to hair texture,
that could be down to skin sensitivity,

which again, is its own market.

Like not everyone can use
the same kind of lotion.

Some people like, I need Eucerin because
I actually might have a condition that

makes my skin incredibly sensitive.

And so the way a product is
formulated, even if it's all natural,

I can't use because of my allergy.

And I think that creates
an interesting opening.

But you have to take venture capital to.

One, fulfill the kind of scale you want.

Two, the kind of custom
formulations you're playing with.

Three, the actual supply chain pressures
that you're gonna be dealing with.

Four, the sort of interventions you have
on the personality technology side, so

the personalization infrastructure to
actually fulfill that kind of order,

ship it, deliver it, and then also
the ingredient costs, which kinda

leads to I think one of the reasons
beauty is so hard is because there are

economic realities built into the model.

So even if we step aside from
bootstrapping or even crowdfunding, where

you can test a hero product by pre-selling
it, and then people buy it, and that

could be the actual seed capital for
the future of producing your business.

And you could just keep
testing hero products.

You still have to figure
out your supply chain.

There is no way you can operate in
this environment without supply chain.

If you get a production bottleneck,
you could have a purchase order

hanging over your head for three to
six months and you can't deliver it

because you can't actually get the
product from the port to somewhere else.

And that actually can crush a business
because now you have overhead costs

that you can't account for, even if you
have revenue on your books, which is

actually really, really, really tough.

, And then you have price
sensitivity, right?

You got consumers in the market,
you've got beauty influencers, you

have brands competing for attention.

And so if I'm doing this or that,
the cheaper product might be the one

in stock, the more expensive product
might be the one that takes longer

to get to me, but I really need it,

Carl Joseph-Black: right?

Jonathan Jackson: So I'm not
actually as loyal as I appear to be.

And I think that's actually one of the
unique parts of beauty is that like it

could actually be that I like this more.

But the availability was, I
needed this and they met the need.

So loyalty is, I think, very
different , from what I'm understanding

in terms of the product growing up
with me is a different experience

than I'm in a crisis and I went
to Sephora and I need this thing.

Like those things don't actually
equal out and that, that can be

challenging in a market like this.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

I also find that the idea behind a
product, growing up with somebody

typically exists more in like
the haircare side of beauty, more

so than in the topical side of
beauty, if that makes any sense.

Like the, so more so in the like haircare
space than in the skincare space.

So like for example, I think about
a product like Carol's daughter,

like a brand like Carol's daughter.

Like if you grew up.

On this product, if you're like,
people's moms were using this product.

So they started using this product, right?

Which created this level
of , legacy, right?

, So there are some folks that kind
of stick with these products simply

because I grew up on this and
it's always been working for me.

Um, this is a brand that I'm kind of with,
but obviously the skincare space, when

there's,, constant innovations, , constant
uses of, new types of, , additions to

these products, you tend to wanna try
something new or you tend to wanna

have something that kind of solves
an issue that's a bit more, pressing.

Jonathan Jackson: Mm-hmm.

Carl Joseph-Black: One of the things
that you actually mentioned a bit

earlier, , a few minutes ago in the con.

That

made me think about just like
the differences between the

products is how many products
a particular brand has, right?

This idea of SKU U management,
which really just is short.

SKU, which really is just
short for stock keeping unit.

The thing with those, , the thing
with the amount of products you

have is that the more products you
have, it adds more complexity right?

To, to everything it that
it is that you're doing.

But of course, if you're a brand that's
really trying to reach a wider audience,

you try your best to have the most
product of products available, but.

You know, Rhode, which is a brand that
you mentioned a little bit earlier,

turned that idea on its head by just
focusing on a particular number.

I think they had maybe they started off
with three SKUs, only three products.

Then I think at max they had what, like
eight or nine, which just tells you that

if you are a person who like really is
super tight on the product suite that

you wanna build out and where you wanna
fit yourself in the market, you could

still be successful because they ended
up selling for over a billion dollars.

, So for me, I think the note
I take from that is that.

You don't necessarily have to
think of yourself as a person that

has to copy and paste somebody
you wanna be like in this space.

Really it's, again, just figuring
out, yo, what is it that works for my

particular brand and how I wanna position
myself within a particular community.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah,
I think that I agree.

I think also, I think what's
interesting about the road sale is

she had an two other co-founders
and so those co-founders were

professional operators, I believe
their husband and wife team.

And so there's a whole other story
about, they have also 50 to 60 employees

and so people have jobs to do, right?

And so Haley has a job and that job is
to make sure your attention when you

give it, is fixated on what road is.

What it's gonna look like, how it's
gonna feel, what's coming next.

You are essentially the center
of attention to direct it.

But there's a whole operating
infrastructure of people doing things.

And I think that's also just, it's
oftentimes like not acknowledged celebrity

or otherwise, that the infrastructure is
a part of any industry, but particularly

beauty when you're taking an idea, an
ip, formulating something, packaging

something, making sure it's compliant
and then getting it into retailer.

Like those are, those steps
by themselves are laborious.

Carl Joseph-Black: It's crazy.

Jonathan Jackson: Like that's actually
really, really labor intensive.

Um, and so this is by no stretch
an easy place to even exist.

It's definitely a, a
grind to become a premier.

And that's kind of part of
like the differentiation on.

It's sort of this, you know, typical
format that is kind of marketing jargon,

but they talk about the four P's.

So you have product,
price, place, and position.

And so across those P's, right?

When you think about product, you're
talking about experiences, right?

Quality, texture, scent, packaging.

What does it feel like?

What does it look like?

Results.

Every product is a promise.

If it's gonna hydrate
you, did it hydrate you?

What did it feel like?

Did it leave you feeling oily?

Right?

And so that's also a whole other
part of the creator environment,

which is that people are telling
you what their experience was and

that experience has influence.

And so , if you are actually a
consumer good, which beauty is.

You have to be sensitive to
public sentiment while also

being clear about the market.

Because if you're not clear,
then every opinion could affect

what you think you need to make.

But if you're too stringent, you might
not be available to other feedback.

And so it's actually a
very tough balancing act.

You've got, , price, what is a signal?

So

Carl Joseph-Black: yeah.

'cause it's like in this space, , if you
release a beauty product that's like too

cheap, then you're basically telling folks
that you're operating for mass adoption.

Jonathan Jackson: Mm-hmm.

Carl Joseph-Black: Right?

But then you know, kind of the higher
up, you kind of go into the space.

You move into like mass teach,
where you're a brand that is

still trying to reach a lot of.

Folks, but you're pricing yourself
a bit higher, but then there's like

a prestige product where you're
really trying to differentiate

yourself and then you're telling
yourself, or there's a luxury product.

Right?

And typically what you
find is that , some brands,

, sometimes they make the mistake
of mispricing themselves.

So they're telling a different message
with their pricing in terms of how

they wanna be positioned in the market.

But then you find that some other
brands, they actually do it really well.

I find that a lot of the luxury brands
are very effective in this because what

they're effectively doing with their,
, beauty products is they're creating these

like mini luxury products that, if you
can't afford, , a pair of Mason, Marcella.

Tabby's, you can go and get something at,
you can get one of Mason Margie's beauty

products, or same thing with Chanel.

If you can't necessarily afford, a
Chanel bag, you can then, instead you

can go and buy Chanel number five.

Right.

And it's, it still maintains the level
of luxury that the product has, but it

still allows the brand itself to market
itself to a, , a larger group of people

while maintaining its luxury credibility.

Right.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I think
luxury's interesting because , it's

one of those things that's very
perceived and so it isn't always a

perception which that other p is placed.

So like where the product
lives also affects.

Value.

So, in a Neiman Marcus or a
Bergdorfs or Harrod's, right?

Those are often aspirational places, , but
they're also designed in a particular way.

So the store itself
looks a particular way.

And oftentimes, no matter where you
are, there's a consistency of what the

store is designed , like how you enter
the store, where things are placed,

what things , are not available on
counter, what you have to ask for.

Oftentimes that's part of, again, the
user experience design, which I think

beauty is also a front runner in, is
it's the relationship with the product

starts way before you purchase it.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: It starts almost
immediately when the product is released.

Right?

Because beauty is a, it's not
based on simply announcement.

There's a schedule, so there's like
an infrastructure of shows reveals.

, And so because it has connectivity
with fashion, , and lifestyle, you

are experiencing product integrations
essentially all year round as part

of other industries calendars.

And , that distribution of being in
target or being in D two C only on

my website, is a part of exclusivity.

There's a part of luxury of , yeah,
but I caught the last drop, which

is similar to kind of street wear.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And so you have
beauty brands that can move like Telfair

because they're like, yeah, we're out.

We're out.

We'll get you next drop.

And that's like a very specific kind of
tactic and behavior, , if you have that

level of moat, it makes sense to use it.

And then you have the promotion,
which is again, back to the creator

overlay, which I call position earlier.

How do you position that thing.

In public and what does that look like?

And so is it editorialized?

Are people writing about it?

Is it in Refinery 29?

Is it, , events?

Is there like an eventing strategy where
people show up and are experiencing

it, but it's part of a larger thing?

Could be a performance, could be a
conversation, it could be gifted, , it

could be UGC, which I think is really
interesting when people , at that

masstige level, people are incentivized
through either discounting or

membership to talk about the results.

I find you see this, , particularly
in, like men's products like beard oil.

I've seen like brands grow really quickly
by either your beard grew or didn't.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: Like that.

That's one of the strategies is
like, yo, my, my joint was patchy

and now it's full and I'm locked in.

And so that's a user strategy.

That is overlaid by value and the
promise being kept to, , 5,000

people left, five star reviews,
and you're like, all right, cool.

So this is like a hero brand.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

, Jonathan Jackson: I know,
worst come the worst.

I'm in a city, I don't know.

I can go to Target and get this thing

Carl Joseph-Black: right

Jonathan Jackson: and my
face is not gonna break out.

Carl Joseph-Black: Right.

Jonathan Jackson: That's actually a
competitive advantage because if I'm

not familiar with you, I don't have the
association when I look at the aisle.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And that to me is,
I think one of the key indicators of

beauty is a industry of integration.

There has to be integration

to engage the product market fit.

Carl Joseph-Black: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Jackson: Like things have
to be integrated and then creators

are a part of that integration.

I can't think of a single beauty brand
that we've even mentioned today that can

actually continue to perpetuate its value.

Without creators.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

And, and you're finding that like many
beauty brands are like innovating and

trying their best to get them even
more involved than they've been before.

So like one of the things that I
find that initially I found really

interesting, but now it's like
becoming normalized in the spaces.

Something you mentioned earlier,
this idea of gifting, right?

Where, I, I think about like a
company like Garnet that like

reaches out when they're like trying
to do products that cater to men.

Let's say they'll reach out to some
of my clients and they'll say, Hey,

yo, we are, we wanna gift you X,
Y, Z, A, B, C. If you like it, use

it and just tell people about it.

Right?

Which is a different, completely
different, , gifting strategy than

what I've seen previous where.

It was just, here's an event, try this
thing out and let us know what you think.

Right.

This idea of targeting who you
want to give these things to, to

identify, and then you give them the
freedom to talk about your product

whichever way you they want to.

Mm-hmm.

Is like a new way of doing this that
I've, that I haven't experienced

before until I would say like the last
year or so when those emails started

coming into me and I'm like, yo,
like they just want to give it away.

, There's no influencer partnership, there's
no, , there's no post this for X dollars.

No.

Just try it out and see what you want.

And then what I've also found is
that as you participate in this like

gifting program, they actually then.

After you've used the product for a
significant period of time and you've

actually shown that you like it and
that there's progress, that then they'll

actually say, Hey, look like we actually
wanna build a partnership with you.

This is what the numbers
look like, X, Y, Z, right?

Mm-hmm.

So like this level of innovation
in the promotion aspect of the four

P's I think also is really cool.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I mean that, that
kind of leads to , this other segment that

I really want to touch on, which is this
idea of the full stack beauty creator.

Like someone who essentially
went from simply being an

influencer to being an owner.

And I cannot think of a better example
of, of Duration than Jackie Ina, right?

So Jackie Ina

gets on YouTube in 2009.

This is like a very important.

Thing to mention before we
even talk about our story,

because YouTube started in 2005.

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Jackson: So if you are
on YouTube in 2009, you are still

within the window of early adoption.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: So that's a
completely different website.

It's still trying to figure out
its full product, market fit.

It's growing obviously, but
it's still in its infancy.

She's also, , in the military, she's
doing, , beauty and makeup tutorials and

continuing to kind of grow an audience.

And I, over time I, for researching
this, , I found a video she did where

she recreated the look of Aaliyah in
more than a woman in like 13 minutes.

And I was just like, yo, I'm definitely
not the target audience for this,

but this is actually remarkable.

To recreate the look of her,,
you know what I'm saying?

In 13 minutes is crazy wor like,
that's like a level of mastery.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And she
was doing that 15 years ago.

Carl Joseph-Black: She also did that
one video, , where she was like, yo,

like why your foundation don't match.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

Like I just think , when we talk about
duration time under tension focus,

Jackie Aina has fundamentally reimagined
what a creator could do on YouTube.

Like she's built into the al I would
say she's built into the algo, frankly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Given when she started and who she was.

And so we had to just call , a
spade, like to be a dark

skinned black girl on YouTube.

In 2009 and to still be on YouTube.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: In 2025, she's
essentially transcended like two to

three different waves of the internet.

She grows an audience, which means, if you
think about the timeline, that's 15 years.

So she's actually teaching people how
to do, she's teaching a generation

of people how to do their makeup.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: At school
abroad, like all kind.

There's all kinds of use cases
of like, how do I do this?

And there's a video for that.

So that's a active library.

2016, she does an eyeshadow palette
with ELF 2017 we do five brushes

with Sigma Beauty 2017, again, two
highlighters with Artist Couture 2019

eyeshadow palette with Anastasia Beverly
Hills, that even before we get to

Forever Mood, the brand she launched
in 2020, , I think the number was.

700,000 in sales in four hours
and then did 6 million top

line revenue in the first year.

Carl Joseph-Black: My yo, honestly.

Jonathan Jackson: And it
was a lifestyle brand.

It wasn't even on some like that.

, That's an extension of what
she had been known for.

So she took a bet on herself in a big way.

She was early on Instagram shop too,

Carl Joseph-Black: dog.

She's the Michael Jordan of this shit.

I don't care.

I don't care if it's a take.

I don't care if I get dragged.

She's the Michael Jordan of this shit.

She really is, bro.

Like I never, ever met a
woman in my entire life.

And I've dated a lot of women.

Jonathan, I've never met a woman in my
life that hasn't mentioned her, like she

is part of all of their playbooks dog.

And the thing that I've learned is that.

Over like, , like the principle I think
that Jackie Aina carries is that like

your credibility compounds over time.

Like once your audience believes
you, they will believe you forever,

Jonathan Jackson: period.

Yeah.

I, have been struck by the amount of

reinvention as well.

, she was doing joint venture deals

before.

There was the standard of what we know
now , , as this influencer market.

And so when we talk about the
things we see as standard now

and brand partnerships like.

There is some level of invention in terms
of how the kind of influence she has built

and now carries reimagines, how people
are expected to work with other people.

And so this is the thing about markets.

When you have someone who

sets a standard and then keeps setting
it over and over again, what happens

is as they transcend or move to a
different place, there are norms.

And so people meet at the
intersection of the norm.

And so that thing that was not
normal has become table stakes.

And the person goes, cool,
love that, but I gotta go over

here and do this other thing.

And so each transition leaves
clues and from those clues,

norms, , and behaviors get shifted.

And so you have agencies being
like, okay, how do we find the next.

Version of that, you have creators
being how, okay, I, I see this,

how can I essentially verticalize
what she did here, but over here?

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

. Jonathan Jackson: In fitness
or as a lifestyle entrepreneur.

But I know the audience is gonna
help me actually pivot over here.

And so there's a professionalization
that I do believe she was a part

of, and a vanguard towards, which
is this idea, this is a career.

Yeah.

, Like this is a actual career.

And like when she started,
it was , not only was it not

a career, it was low status,

Carl Joseph-Black: bro.

Michael Jordan.

Michael Jordan, six rings.

You are reading all of the amazing
stats of what's arguably the greatest

player of all time in this space.

Bro.

That's what we're talking about right now.

Okay.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

It's fire.

. Fire.

So the other thing that's interesting
in our extensive research for this

episode was the other professionalization
flywheel that beauty has.

And so we've talked a lot about,
brands, creators, intersections,

but there's a whole other element of
the professionalized creator that I

don't think it's talked about a lot,
which is kind of the medical and,

, professional wellness, curatorial.

And so there's expert creators now
that are dermatologists, nutritionists,

coaches, trainers, estheticians,
that are part of this kind of four

p , framework we talked about where

there are pharmacy doctors reviewing
topicals because they recommend it.

At their pharmacy.

Yeah, so they have, so they're
like a actual pharmacist and

they have a YouTube channel.

I saw a guy, his name is Dr. Arian
Aspires, and he had essentially a 15

minute video where he talked about why
he loved a specific topicals product.

That's all he did.

He was like, this is why I use it.

It's what I recommend.

It's really great for X, Y, and Z.
Here's how it clears up your skin.

That's the video.

No endorsement, no, no
paid ad. Just this is good.

You should use it.

And I think there's
something very distinct.

You sometimes ,, can see this in
finance, but it's a little less

because depending on if you're able
to, if you're regulated or not.

But because the doctors have professional
credibility similar to lawyers.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And accountants and
certain types of investment managers.

There's things to be within
their ethical boundaries.

They cannot do.

Which creates a margin of trust
because they are restrained

from simply being bozos.

Right?

And in light of that, they actually
can't just say whatever they want.

So when they lend their
credibility, it actually changes the

sensitivity to that product.

And so you see this all over social
now, which is that as creators

sort of a byproduct of simply
being present in the ecosystem.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: More and more medical
professionals are being asked what they

use, what they recommend, which is a
completely different referral channel.

Carl Joseph-Black: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Jackson: For a beauty brand.

Especially if that person runs their
own practice is well-regarded, doctor.

And I just think that's a very unique
integration of this creator economy.

W and the promise of the product, like
if the product does what it does and

you're getting di like that used to
be like a toothpaste thing, right?

You'd be like, Hey, like four out of
four, four out four surgeon stuck there,

Carl Joseph-Black: 10 dentist

Jonathan Jackson: recommend

Carl Joseph-Black: or recommend

Jonathan Jackson: this
fluoride tooth free toothpaste.

But now it's like this well
known cosmetic surgeon recommends

this product as aftercare.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And then turns
around and just has it in their clinic.

And so that's its own
other prestige thing.

Yeah.

Where it's like we are now in this
clinic that like this kind of person

goes to for this kind of procedure.

And you are also now able to have a
relationship through recommendation.

So we didn't even direct, we, you might
not have heard of us, but we have a

relationship at this kind of level.

And so now we have a completely different.

Access point because you're more than
likely to swear by this because the

person who operated on you gave it to you.

And that's like a di that's like a
flywheel outside of, I think the normal

kind of paid or earned media cycle,
which is, I I just think fascinating

in an industry, this competitive,
like you don't just get that,

Carl Joseph-Black: right.

Jonathan Jackson: Uh,

Carl Joseph-Black: I, I don't know.

I, so one, I completely agree with you.

I also think about some of
the other brands that I find

different ways to innovate.

So like.

There's like Jay Tibbits, right?

Mm-hmm.

Jay Tibbits basically does fashion
criticism and cultural commentary,

but the way he does it with the
focus on men's wear and grooming also

like creates this process where you
get to build trust as well, right?

, And it shows that, of course, like as
effective as it is in terms of a flywheel

for a medical professional that's doing
these recommendations for particular

products, that also in this way of you
can also create a flywheel in terms

of like connected products, right?

Like this idea of playing a person
who is walking you through how to

basically get your life together.

If you are a 21-year-old male and
you just got your first job, you just

graduated college and you basically
don't know how to do much, right?

Like you just got your little check.

So you don't know what product to buy or,
, how your suits should fit or what products

you should be using for your hair, right?

Jay Tibbits is basically not only shows
you what it is, but also, , does this,

like this is why it's good, this is why
it's bad , in this very trustworthy style.

, And I also think that when I'm
holding up this like medical

professional kind of recommendation
for products, I also think about these

types of folks who just have been.

Almost agnostic in the process.

'cause for them, they've just
been focused on getting you right.

If that makes any sense.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I think I, I
don't even know if they're agnostic.

I just think they are focused on the
experience as opposed to the outcome.

So Jay's front row at these shows,
he's wearing the clothing, he's

personable, he's telling you how
to put it on, and , he's adjacent.

So if you're talking about
clothing, people are gonna

inevitably talk about routines.

Like you're gonna see him get dressed,
there's lifestyle, he's traveling,

so you're inevitably you're with him.

So he's gonna show you what's in his bag.

He's gonna show you what he uses.

He might obviously show you
outfit of the day content or

what's moving in men's wear.

'cause he's present.

So that's the other part of,
he's an industry insider.

And so he's telling you things and then
he's giving you his perspective on things.

And so he's helping you.

Shape your own taste
because he has his own.

And so I think that's also, he's a real
deal influence mag and , I say influence

because , I differentiate influence
as the ability to clearly articulate

your sensibility over a duration of
time from influencer, which is often

pegged to can you create this kind
of outcome in this duration of time?

And I think when you separate those
things out, when they meet in the

middle, that's a , very powerful thing.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And typically
it's highly investible.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: When those things
are separate, you find that over time

they can be in the middle or they
might always diverge and you can be

fine on either side, but it is, I
think, a rare experience to have.

Those things intersect.

And I think that's why, , somebody like
Kelly Augustine, who is a real New Yorker,

, Carl Joseph-Black: Like she,

Jonathan Jackson: she's from the town.

Carl Joseph-Black: Like she
legit went to Bronx Hunt.

She's like a genius.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

So she's like , really one of them.

Someone like that who was also early in
the space before there was a name for it.

, I think my, my thing with Kelly is I
think she dresses like black thought raps.

Carl Joseph-Black: I'm not gonna lie, bro.

Jonathan Jackson: She's
just better than you.

No.

Like I, I went for the research.

I went on her page and I literally saw
her wearing, I think it, it was like

August and the caption was something
crazy, like I want it to be pre-fall.

So then she just put on like a snake skin
like jacket and then snake skin boots.

And I literally was like.

I am not good enough to wear clothes.

I have to try harder.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yo, , I be seeing
Kelly, I be seeing Kelly outside, like

I seen Kelly in Bushwick and Kelly
had a fit, and I said, yo, my nigga,

do they, they make that for men,

Jonathan Jackson: bro.

, Carl Joseph-Black: It is
rare that I'm doing that.

Jonathan Jackson: I think there's like a
legitimate, this is what I mean though,

, because she's like nice at putting it on
and then she's nice at putting people in

the things they should be putting on you.

That intersection is so crazy because
again, it's an extension of beauty.

Like she was doing the, , she was
doing the cover of Bridal Mag.

You know what I'm saying?

, And so like she's around mu so if you
think about that kind of network of

the MUAs know the stylists who know
the creators, who know the heads of the

brand, who then L'Oreal is , come to
this dinner so we can all just get the

brain think like there, there's this
really rich tapestry, but again, we

have to be honest about the distinction
between somebody with real proper New

York Street style being from New York.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: And someone who
literally moved here post grad and

takes selfies inside of random spots and
tells you what's great about New York.

Like those are two distinct things.

And while there could be material
value, a brand extracts from , that's

very different than someone looking at.

Kelly put on a fit and be
like, how do I purchase that

immediately today, in this moment?

Because I need to look that good
in my regular life, and I don't.

And so I think that, again,
there's an aspiration to all

this in this conversation.

It's like , , the promise of the
product and how you feel about yourself

and looking good and feeling good is
often delivered by these merchants.

, There, there's some form
of delivery happening.

And , I think that's why this
industry is such a powerful.

Example of early adoption of the
creator economy because you're trying

to get people to take a behavior.

They, you need them to do a
thing and sometimes you need

to see someone do it first.

And so if you don't know how to do
that makeup, you need to see someone.

If you don't know how to wear that,
you need to see Kelly wear it.

If you are not sure you know how to get
your pants hemmed, you might need Jay to

actually tell you what that looks like.

And so I think all of these things
coalesce into an instructional environment

that is highly, has commercial value,
has deep pockets because you're

actually taking up margin and is
also con continues to scale as people

think about what their individuality
looks like in terms of the products

that they have, the things they wear.

And those things are always intersecting.

Yeah.

'cause everything's a routine.

How you get dressed,
how you wash your face.

Are always gonna intersect
because we're human.

Like these are things we, we
have to go outside and engage.

And I think that, that to me is
where do you wanna be in that?

, When people are thinking about
inspiration, like , where in the

opportunity lane do you wanna exist?

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah, that's real.

, And I think about when I consider that
I see why brands have such a large

thirst to work with creators, right?

Because there's just this level of
authenticity that no matter how much a

brand tries, they cannot emulate, right?

, For example, like there's no brand
that's recreating a Kelly, so

you need to actually partner with
Kelly because Kelly's gonna tell

us how to put that shit on, right?

, And.

I'd say like at least one of the first
larger brands that I've seen actually

try their best to have a real authentic
approach while working with creators.

, Was Sephora when they kind of launched
like the Sephora squad program

and, what was that, 2019 or so?

Jonathan Jackson: Mm-hmm.

, Carl Joseph-Black: Just really
saying, Hey, we're gonna

work with select creators.

We know what they mean to their audiences.

We know how authentic they are, so
we're gonna build these long term

relationships with these creators.

. , What other brands, at least mentally
are you seeing that kind of have

tried to build that relationship
between, , creators and themselves,

but like just on a real authentic
basis , for long periods of time?

Jonathan Jackson: I think that.

I think Sephora is an interesting
example because they're a retailer.

Mm-hmm.

And , so a retailer is, has
to consistently think about

foot traffic and product.

Carl Joseph-Black: Mm-hmm.

, Jonathan Jackson: And to your point,
, they just released storefronts.

So this new environment
where they're like, Hey, if

we try, we had an experiment, it worked.

We need to continue to evolve.

And so we need to make it available
for people to set up their own

storefront so their audience
can transact with them directly.

Carl Joseph-Black: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Jackson: So we're just
gonna build more stores everywhere by

virtue of where people are shopping.

So we're seeing the data.

, I think another example of sort
of long-term thinking here,

because I don't think it's a
bet, I think it's an experiment.

If you treat it like an experiment,
you're like, what am I solving for?

If you're solving for immediate
product delivery, maybe . Just

randomly signing people isn't the way.

But if you're solving for trust in a
trust sensitive environment, you can

be also thinking like Fenty, who this
year was like, oh look, the New York

Liberty seemed to be pretty fashionable.

What if we just sponsored them
and I don't know, like parts

of the rest of the league?

Because these players are also fashion
icons that wear clothes and get dressed up

outside in the arena and then after games.

And so if I think about somebody
who's invested, it's the same

kind of people we mentioned.

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: If you were
invested in your audience upfront,

you're not gonna miss this moment.

Yeah.

'cause you're built for it.

You have the capacity to be like, yeah,
that's somebody we wanna play with.

'cause they're different.

They're distinctive 'cause
that's who we wanted to be.

So , you're already attuned.

Brand is simply a series of promises
made publicly and then delivered on.

Carl Joseph-Black: That's a bar.

Jonathan Jackson: So if you are already,
that's part of your value system.

It's not hard for you to find
people with your shared values.

, That's why when people are like,
I don't know when creators sign,

I'm like, you don't have any values
because it gets really easy to see

what you do and do not want to do.

And you're clear.

And most people aren't clear, so they
come outside confused and they wonder

why they get hit by oncoming traffic.

It's a green light on you.

You should have waited for
the red, but you didn't.

And so when you're in the crosswalk
and it's like a green, you gotta dodge

cars instead of getting in the one
that can take you where you want to go.

So I feel like Fenty, , Topicals had a
billboard on Atlantic for four months.

I used to go to the gym and it, I
could, there was like a, it felt like

a girl was just looking at me being
like, your face isn't clean enough.

Wash your

Carl Joseph-Black: face.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I was wash

Carl Joseph-Black: your face.

Jonathan Jackson: But it was hard.

'cause it's like that,, that, to
decide to do that, like that's part

of, if your bio says slicker than
your average, like that's part of

you, that's part of how you show up.

So it makes sense that you'd
have, , that's actually

where you'd have a billboard.

So I think the people who are moving in
their lane , are continuing to, and , I

think , that's part of this for me.

I had a chance to hear Coltrane
Curtis , , talk, who's the,

founder , of Team Epiphany.

And Team Epiphany was one of
the early people in this space.

You, I think it's.

I think it is true to say that they coined
the framing of the influencer environment

and then taught people how to navigate it.

And he said, , I'll paraphrase, but he
mentioned how he's , from Bed-Stuy and

he was like, when people talk about
influencers and who has influence,

he said, I have a simple rubric.

He said, anytime somebody talks about
their influence, I listen to what

they say and who they say they know.

I might end up in a room or I might
take them to a room where that person

they said they know exists and I'll
ask them to go talk to them because

how I grew up in my neighborhood, if
you had influence, people knew you.

So I just expect that if you
have influence, the person you

said you know will talk to you.

Simple litmus test, a lot
of people can't do it.

And I think that's the difference.

Like a lot of people are
like, yeah, I know, but it's

like, do they respond to you?

Carl Joseph-Black: Yeah.

Jonathan Jackson: When you ask them
to do something and do you have a

relationship where they, there's
a response and do you know how to

meet that response or are you simply

entertaining but not engaging?

'cause I think that's possible too.

Like you can be very entertaining
and people can keep moving, but

to take that next step requires
a lot of upfront investment.

And I think that's what I want to, that's
why talking about beauty was important

because there's so much upfront investment
before a product even comes out.

And that's just the first step.

From then on, it's like you have to meet
expectations and continue to exceed them.

Because there's so many
people with promises.

Carl Joseph-Black: Beauty's
a hard business, bro.

It and the consumer's a tough crowd.

If you don't pay your vendor, if
you don't pay , an influencer and

they come out and they say, yo,
this beauty brand ain't pay me.

Like the audience is deep frying you.

You are Korean fried
chicken, it's over for you.

, This is a very tough environment.

And to me, like I find that a lot of
the beauty founders, a lot of the folks

who are in this space, are the most
tactical, they're the most thoughtful

because they know this sensitivity
in that relationship, you know?

And so , although this episode talks
about this industry and talks about

the products and some of the very, very
important people who are in that space.

, This is also just like a lesson in
how to actually run your business

when you're running a business online.

You know when you, like, when you
decide, Hey, I'm gonna be a creator.

I'm gonna create a business structure
that's related to what I'm doing.

, These are some of the principles
that you actually should be thinking

through when going out to market.

Right?

Like, how connected am I to my audience?

What kind of relationship do I
want to have with my audience?

Am I real with the relationship
that I actually have with them?

? And also on the other side , is
my product actually ready to ship?

Can I meet the order requests?

Do I have the capacity?

Do you have the facilities
for that big man?

These are the things you gotta think
about, , before you go out there.

, So watching beauty, 'cause I know
that of course we have a lot of

wonderful ladies that watch our show,
but a lot of guys watch our show too.

And there's a lot you can
actually learn from this space.

Even though, , let's say if you're a
guy and your product suite is limited

to men's grooming and skincare products,
there's a lot you can actually learn from

the products that are marketed to women.

Like how they're marketed,
how those communities are

built, how they're maintained.

There's so much if you're a
business person, like there's so

much to learn from those strategies
that you can apply yourself,?

So I think that's.

That's effectively it for this episode.

Is there anything else you want
to share, Jon, before we wrap up?

Jonathan Jackson: Wash your face.

Carl Joseph-Black: Word, word.

Word facts.

Y'all be out here coming
outside with calling your eye

and we don't want to see that.

So wash your face.

Facts.

Jonathan Jackson: I'm Jonathan.

Carl Joseph-Black: I'm Carl.

This is Due Dilly.

Don't follow me.

Don't follow Jon.

Don't follow us.

Just follow the money.

The British Narrator : We came from

Due Dilly is research and hosted
by Carl Joseph Black and Jonathan

Jackson, audio engineering and
camera operation by Wolf Taylor.

Video editing by Sean
Ferra and Stefan Lawrence.

Illustration and design by Duro Arts.

Filmed on location at WTF Media
Studios in New York City and I'm

your reliable British narrator,
born and raised in South London.

For deeper insights and
context, visit duethedilly.com.

That's D-U-E-T-H-E-D-I-L-L y.com.

See you next time.