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Jonathan Jackson: Welcome
back to Due Dilly.

I'm Jonathan.

I'm Carl.

What's good y'all?

And we got an exciting episode today.

We are talking about convenings
and events in the age of ai.

I'm excited about this
episode for a couple reasons.

One, because it's my belief
that convening and gathering is.

One of the most important
parts of any modern media

company or in a creator's bag.

And it's also one of the
hardest to execute at scale.

But if you do it well, you can create
an incredible business for yourself.

So we're excited to jump into that and
talk about some examples, some things

you can do, and then also some things
that are happening in the ecosystem I

think are really special that anyone
can kind of take some insight from.

Carl Joseph-Black : Yeah, John's excited
about this more than anyone in the world

because John is a convenings nerd, bro.

Like you are a nerd dog
when it comes to this.

You be nerding out the Crip
like, yo, did you see a K?

Just did this, da.

Check this out.

They're building a whole
new, this is your space, bro.

This is your space.

And as a person myself, who like you
know, started a convenience business

as well, nowhere near where John
has been when it comes to this, but

I'm excited to talk about this too.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, it's exciting.

I think that , to kick off, I want
to delineate a couple things because

I think sometimes what happens is,
you know, we're we're live from New

York, so in a city like New York, there
are so many events every day, right?

Today's a Friday, so we could walk
down the street in soho and bump

into someone on the way to an event.

It's also fashion Week, right?

So you got all kinds of stuff
popping off in the city.

I think the difference between a
convening and an event is , really, I,

and I wanna structure that out 'cause
it's gonna help talk through some of the

reasons why these businesses get so big.

So the way I define a convening is a
consistent gathering of people for a

purpose, a moment, or a shared activity.

An event can be a convening, but
every convening is not an event.

The reason an event is a little different
in my definition is because events can

be one-offs or ad hoc, so they don't have
to sort of repeat or have consistency,

but they can still be successful.

So it's not a problem, but a convening
starts to actually shape the culture

of the people who go, the culture of
the environment it takes place in,

and the wider worlds and understanding
of it, which we'll get into later.

So I just wanted to kind of shape that
out because the words we use to help

shape the, you know, environment we're in.

So a convening versus an event.

Does that

Carl Joseph-Black : make sense,

Jonathan Jackson: Carl?

Carl Joseph-Black : I think what you're
trying to really say is that when I go and

I make particle invites, you saying that
that's, that's not a convening, that's

an event, or are you saying the opposite?

Are you saying that that is an event,
but that's not necessarily a convening?

Jonathan Jackson: So I'm saying that's
an event because you might not be

doing the same thing month over month,
week over week, or year over year.

My, my definition isn't to say that
there's anything wrong with that.

It's that the reason convenings
can grow is because they keep

a certain set of promises.

So a convening is happening
year after year, which means

people can get familiar with it.

You can start to organize your time
or your budget around it, and you know

where it's gonna be, who's gonna be
there and what it's gonna feel like.

And so the convening gains trust
with an audience, because it

consistently delivers on that thing.

It could be the kind of people, it
could be the kind of event, it could

be the kind of feeling, it could
even be the environment, but there's

consistency so you can trust it.

Carl Joseph-Black : Got you.

Got you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ain't ain't no consistency
in my Partiful invites.

I just be like, yeah, come through.

Come link, come link.

And then I, I don't link for a minute.

So I see.

I definitely see the
point that you're making.

I feel like there's several
convenings that we talk about.

In the culture.

Jonathan Jackson: Mm-hmm.

Carl Joseph-Black : A lot.

Mm-hmm.

And they typically happen, you
know, every year or every other year.

But I think going into the business
today is gonna be really interesting

just 'cause, you know, when we
attend the convenings, we are there

to take photos, tell folks that we
were there meet new folks obviously.

And especially the social aspect of the
convenings actually has changed the way we

convene to begin with but I guess for
me, like for me, the idea of convenings

as a business, the interest level that
I've had in it has really started for me.

It started like several years ago,
I'd say probably like 20 15, 20 16.

When, um, when, um, I
first went to tech Day.

Which was in Chelsea Pierce in the
west side where basically all these like

really cool startups would come and meet
up and they basically set up a table and

everybody would talk about their business.

And my homie who had started a
tech company way back then, um, I

attended with him and I basically
worked his table with him.

He made a company called Befriend,
which is like a social app.

It's no longer in existence now.

And he, and he's in Puerto
Rico sailing all the time.

So he's, it was all behind us.

All behind us now.

But that's really when I got into the
understanding that convenings is a thing.

And of course, like, you know, even
younger, I used to go to the car show

every single year and I would go to
Comic-Con, but I, I think I was too

young back then to really understand the
convenings environment and to understand

the value of these of these businesses.

'cause that's what they are.

So I'm really, I'm really kind of excited.

To kind of get into this,
what about you though?

Like, what has, like, when was your
start of like really feeling this

type of industry, or at least what,
like piqued your interest in it?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, I think
so for me, in a former life

I was part of a founding team
of business called Blavity Inc.

One of the things that the
business is known for globally

now is called Afro Tech.

Afro Tech started in 2016
in San Francisco, and it's

since grown to gather around.

I think the last count was
probably around 40,000 people.

I believe this year it's
gonna be in Houston.

And when that started it was
the brainchild of of, of Morgan.

And, and her view was
like, why don't we have.

Conferences or places where black
technologists are seen, are

recognized, and are celebrated.

And so it started as an experiment.

You know, the first year it was
about 650 people and year over

year we saw massive growth.

And if I reflect on that time
personally, I knew the idea was good,

but you don't actually know outside
of execution what will work and what

sort of proved and what the market
validated was that there was not just

a need and a hunger, but an interest.

And so that's what I think also

exists in this kind of space.

And this is why I think it's
actually really powerful

for media companies because.

When you gather people, you start
to deal in a human algorithm,

so you're not actually beholden
to the platform in the same way.

Now you might use a platform to
distribute, to talk about it, to

share, but in the room it always hits
different than outside of the room.

And it kind of shaped how I thought
about what's possible in the space.

I, I've been, I think, gifted to be a part
of something like that early, but then

also see kind of the evolution of some of
these other things that came alongside,

came at the same time and came after.

And so these all, there's all these kinds
of differentiated models from, you know,

large scale to intimate to semi-private.

And I think that's really what I, what
I convey in this episode is that I

think in an age of ai, in an age of

slop being kind of just
cascaded across our feeds.

Gathering actually is
gonna take a premium.

That's my personal thesis.

And my assertion is that gathering
is gonna become a premium product

because people want to engage with
people that are of like mind or even

different in an environment that's
not charged by an outside structure.

And if you can create that space
for people, you can actually engage

them in any way you might want to
over a long enough period of time.

Carl Joseph-Black : It's
first of all, that's crazy.

Second of all and when I say that's
crazy, like, it it's crazy that

like you were one of the folks on the
founding team of like Afro tech, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like a million questions there.

First of all, like what did you
expect it to be when you did it right?

Like as a creator yourself,
what are the things that you

expected the outcome to be right?

Like.

Were you just gonna, were you like,
yo, we're gonna rent a spot and then

we're just gonna have folks who are
black and love technology kind of sit

down in a circle and hug each other?

Or, what was, what was the
outcome that you thought would

be spectacular during that time?

Jonathan Jackson: I mean, I I, I
give credit where it's due, man.

, It was, it was Morgan's vision.

I, I think at that time, my view
is that th there was just not

a space for gathering period.

And so I think at that point
in technology, you sort of

start to get to know people.

The longer you're in the industry and
you see people go, but , you gotta

think about sometimes how lonely
it is to be building something.

And maybe you actually need to meet a
co-founder, or maybe you actually are

looking to swap industries, but you're not
sure and you have a non-traditional path.

These are things that I think now.

Are sort of pathway out.

They're specific.

But, you know, a decade, 15 years ago,
it's actually, it's still hard to pivot,

but like the blueprint make makes it
feel not just possible, but personal.

And I think for me, if you can
actually get people in a room and

seeing the vision, you can kind
of create the world as you go.

And so I think I've, I always
thought about Afro Tech as a world.

It just happens that there
is a convening in that world.

And so that's another thing that I
think some of these other institutions

we're gonna talk about have, is that
sure there's going to the thing,

but that thing only happens at the
gathering spot like once a year.

But you're still talking about
the world is self perpetuating.

And so there's other things that
are happening, extensions of that,

new properties that make it so
that even if you didn't show up

in person, you were aware of it.

It.

Crossed into your maybe, you know,
circle of vision digitally, or you

heard about it from someone you respect.

Carl Joseph-Black : Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Jackson: Which then makes it
an invitational thing as opposed to

sort of like a thing you thought about.

This is what the Grammys are really good
at, is like everyone knows it's Grammys

night, whether you watch it or not.

The next day people talk about who won,
and the speeches and who was there and

what they wore and the after party and
who didn't win and who should have won

and what movie didn't make it right?

Like, these are all, or what,
what music didn't make it.

Like.

These are all,

I think, extensions of something
really powerful, which is that

people have a innate desire sometimes
to be known, to be seen, to be

celebrated, and to be made aware of
things and convening's actually done

Well do all four of those consistently.

Carl Joseph-Black : So there's so many
different types of convenings out here

and I feel like we're, so far what we've
named talks about one type of convening.

Like what are the different
types and styles of convening

that, like, at least from your
understanding of the business exists?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah, so I
think, I think there are what

I would call like tone setters.

So that's kind of like afro tech,
a culture con, um, a VidCon.

And these are sort of

unique moments in the calendar year that.

People are building momentum
towards where, you know, there's a

consistency and a potency of the event.

Like, you know, it's gonna spread.

It's, it's viral in that sense.

So those typically have an origin
story where they grow to scale or,

you know, have a level of permanence,
whether in the city or the environment.

So they have they're big enough
where they actually command space,

both physically, logistically,
and I think mentally, like it

takes up space in people's minds.

Typically, those events are not just the
day of, they're usually like a week long.

So you, you kind of back
into kind of the conference.

Yeah.

But there's events, there's
dinners, there's things that

kind of are built around it.

And so that's kind of like what
I'd say like the tone setter

is I'd say then there's also sort
of like industry standard stuff.

So that's like HubSpot inbound, right?

Which is a massive B2B conference
by a company called HubSpot.

I. That's just really well known.

That has evolved from simply like,
you know, business to business company

partners to having massive speakers come.

It's, it's turned into kind of a festival
environment, which is interesting.

You have Cannes, lions, the same thing in
France, which we'll get into in a second.

That's really unique because that's
like the premier standard for the

advertising and marketing industry.

Like you go to Cannes, you do deals,
awards are given out, you apply

throughout the year to be an awardee.

And it's sort of like if you win,
there is a actual capital associated

with being lion winner, with being
recognized on stage, with speaking

on stage, with being in the room.

So there's sort of like what you might
call an artificial gate, which is

that if you're in, like you're here
and like you can just move around.

But if you're not, you are sort
of watching people inside the

gate do stuff, which is fine, but
that's an, that's a different one.

And then I'd say there's kind of.

The sort of depth and intimacy market.

And so that, that's sort of something
like lectures on tap, which is a

really, really special, I think it's
a fire business concept, but it's a

gathering of people in localized bars.

I think they're in five cities now,
five or six cities, and people come

and do these 40 minute lectures
about a topic in a bar and people

are watching and asking questions.

And so it's sort of like on the one
hand, like a different spin on an

academic lecture in a third space bar
lounge with people who want to hear

about it, who also paid to be there.

So it's like the audience and the
presenter are in a relationship because

you came to hear this person talk
about this thing at this specific time.

So everyone has sort of agreed to the
reason why they're there, which is very

different than sort of an event where
you're like, oh, I heard I should be here.

And so that's like a very
different kind of market.

But that's also why I think it's
really powerful how they've grown.

Because anywhere you go, people might
want to hear about a specific thing

they didn't know about, they knew
about, but wanted to hear from a

different context or have heard about,
but want to learn from an expert.

And so they're actually building a
marketplace of expertise and curiosity

in a place where people are already
primed to talk, which would be a bar.

So that to me is a very unique flywheel
effect where you can kind of show up.

It's a great deal for a location
on a venue on off night.

It's a good deal for the consumer
who's like, actually after work, I

do wanna learn something about, I
don't know, AI and how LLMs are built.

And it's a great thing for the presenter
who's like, I actually want to get my

research out in a specific way and I have
something to give here and I believe I can

do it inside of a condensed environment.

So that's why I think.

That's really special.

But that's kind of like the way I've
started to see kind of these things.

There's more categories,
there's more insights.

But you know, for our purposes today,
that's kind of how I I see the,

Carl Joseph-Black : yeah.

I find lectures on top
interesting as well.

Just 'cause a lot of the other
convenings that we, we spoke about,

typically when they do have their events
or their times every single year, they

typically have it in the same place.

Mm-hmm.

But lectures on tap doesn't necessarily
have a singular space that they own.

Instead it's gonna be a bar and it's
gonna be in one of these five cities,

but you don't know which bar it's
gonna be at because that's gonna

be determined by the speaker, which
space is making themselves available.

And obviously the group of
people will be in attendance.

Which I think is a nice spin on this
idea to actually like freeze up this.

This idea of convenings being
a very fixed type of concept.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Because of course, like Afro Tech
and Comic-Con VidCon, these, these

larger ones, they, they in a very
well aware, larger spectacles, right?

So like, if you wanted to enter into
the convenings business as a creator,

like if you're thinking about convenings
on that scale, you're probably telling

yourself that, oh, I'm not necessarily
ready to build up to something like this.

Like lectures on tap actually shows
you that it's not necessarily, you

don't necessarily need to build that
type of infrastructure in order to

run an effective convenings business.

Instead, really it's where are you
gathering and what is the level

of consistency and really, like
who is your community, right?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and to me, it also makes me
think about the cultural effect

of these convenings, right?

Obviously lectures on Tap has
its own culture and culture

Con has its own culture.

Afro Tech has its own culture.

It's Afro Tech has permeated
outside of its own culture.

Mm-hmm.

In a very real way.

We got Jay-Z saying Afro Tech on tracks.

So it's like the effect of these
convenings actually, although they're

community focused, they actually
can like, wrap around and actually

affect popular culture in a real way.

So I guess where I want to kind of go
now is just really digging into the

anatomy of a gathering or a convening.

Yeah.

Like at least from your
experience when building it.

Like what is the architecture
of that type of business?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

So I, I think it, it comes
down to three things.

One is.

Concentrated access.

I'm gonna use, I'm gonna use,
from my understanding, I've

never been, but here's what I've
studied about Cannes Lions, right?

When you're thinking about marketing,
advertising, and gathering people,

it's an award driven industry.

So people are winning awards in
front of their peers collaboratively.

And also talking about the future of their
industry, what it's gonna be, what things

need to be shaped, shifted, and shaped.

New ideas are being populated.

And so if you think about a festival
of creativity, that's sort of what has

been known to kind of celebrate people
who are legendary in the space, people

who are up and coming, and to kind of
actually set the taste bar because it's,

it's been what it's been for so long.

So concentrated access, right?

So that's, if you spend five days
there, you're gonna bump into people

you otherwise might not have seen.

Or didn't know would be there.

And so there's a concentration effect
that you want when you're building

a convening of like serendipity.

It's like walking down a
block and seeing somebody.

But I haven't seen 'em in a while.

Having that conversation that you
might not have on Twitter, you probably

wouldn't have publicly, but you're
in a closed environment, so there's

not the same kind of pressure and
you're there to talk about that thing.

I would say relationship acceleration.

So how quickly can we have a conversation
about a deal and actually move

through that in this environment?

Right?

So it's beautiful.

You're on the French Riviera, you're on
a yacht, you're talking about business.

That's normal.

It's behavior.

That's why people would pay 90
racks to run a yacht and just

actually have meetings on the yacht.

Carl Joseph-Black : Yo, it's crazy
that people are paying 90 racks for

y'all at Cannes, but it like, at the
same time, it makes sense who's there.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, it's like, isn't it what a hundred
bands for like a full corporate team to

actually like pull up there to begin with.

Then you gotta spend the
money when you there on top.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

It depends.

I mean, you're talking about flights, but
if, if you were to do like the exercise

of flying in, getting your flights, yeah.

If you sent four people and a couple
people wanted to fly business or

whatever, you're looking, you're
looking at a five figure sum easily,

and then you got hotels or you're
staying somewhere, you travel in,

maybe you have a corporate event.

You pay, you know, 25, 30 racks
to like host a side dinner.

If you're really doing it, you
actually get a boat and you

just have an event on your boat.

But then you also take
meetings onset boat.

So you're in maybe for a
quarter million, 300, 300 racks.

But let's say you close a multi-year.

Two, $3 million deal for a quarter
million is 3 million worth it.

Carl Joseph-Black : And
that's the thing, right?

Like, and people tend to forget
that, like these types of

convenings are where deals get done.

Like we have this fixed idea that deals
are done and like these corporate offices,

and it kind of feels like a television
show where people are talking or whatever.

But really it's like, hey, we're having
a great time in the south of France and

hey, I wanna let you know that we're
actually coming out with this new type of

advertising technology and we think that
you would be the perfect client for it.

You know, we could do a deal right
now, 18 million over three years,

we know that you have the budget.

What's up?

And like the idea that that's
how like most of these deals are

done actually adds into the value
of the convening itself, right?

Because if you are a salesperson on a
team, you wanna find a way into that

community that way because you know that
it drives revenue for your business.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

Carl Joseph-Black : It's that vital.

Mm-hmm.

So when you're the person creating the
convening, if you're really good at

curating that level of community, right?

Like you can price that into the
attendance of your convening.

And it, and that price also plays
as a buffer because it tells people,

yo, like this ain't, if you can't
afford it, this ain't for you.

Some, I mean

Jonathan Jackson: that, that, this
is where the model gets interesting

because, you know, quiet is kept,
a lot of this stuff is pay to play.

So sometimes it's pay to speak,
sometimes it's pay to panel.

Sometimes it's pay to have a dinner.

Sometimes it's after you pay to
speak, you pay for the panel setup.

So you pay per install.

So maybe you have a 10 by 10 stage,
you're paying for the stage, then you're

paying for the bannering on the stage,
then you're paying for the presenting

sponsorship if you're that big.

And so you're thinking about
all the different ways that

the IP is monetized, right?

Because it's not just the logo, it's
not just the awards, it's the style

of the event, where the event takes
place, how the event takes place.

So you're thinking about all of these
different opportunities for people

to have visibility in a thing that is
unique, doesn't happen all the time,

and not everyone can do, which then
creates scarcity, which then creates

an opportunity for people to pay, to
actually be the owner of that scarce

moment in time that will be remembered
by all the other people that are there.

Carl Joseph-Black : And by
being there, you're basically.

You're basically giving
the marketplace a signal.

So place also has, so the convening
also has signal value, right?

So , how are these like, 'cause you just
gave a clear example of like the, you

gave a clear example of the structure
of the business, but I'm wondering like,

what does that look like in practice?

Can you give me like some
examples of what that looks like?

Jonathan Jackson: The
business or the structure?

The

Carl Joseph-Black : structure?

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

Carl Joseph-Black : Like, hey, like
what does concentrated access look like?

Yeah.

Right.

Like

we talked about how okay,
Cannes has certain people there.

Is that the concentrated access
or is it that there's the.

Base level ticket, but then maybe
there's, I've never been to cans.

Right.

So is there a base level ticket and then
like an upper, an upper ticket for sure.

Like what does that
concentrated access look like?

Jonathan Jackson: So I think concentrated
access is based on what you buy into and

what the promise of what you buy into is.

And so most conferences we've
even talked about have different

tiers of ticket, which gives
you different levels of access.

Mm-hmm.

So it might be that you have a
separate section you can just mill

about in and you just end up meeting
people who are in VIP with you.

It could be that you have special access
that gives you things before and after

that other people don't know about.

Right.

And that's, that's part
of just the payment.

It could also be that you get different
elements, swag bags, things like that.

Things that are attached to, again, the
world of the event that create a sense

of not just nostalgia, but uniqueness.

Right.

And then like ideally are serving
the consumer at the point, I

think some of these conferences.

In research for this episode, one thing
that's interesting is the value of the

entity itself is not often talked about.

So we talk about the value for like
the person coming, but the business

itself is often underpriced because
it's very hard to price in culture.

So culture as like an idea, as a thing.

We talk about, we hear about a deal,
but we don't always hear about the

mechanics of how you come to a deal.

So Cannes Lions is an interesting example
because the company that owned Cannes

Lions was purchased outright last year.

That company was called Essential.

That essential had two crown jewels
in, its in its sort of portfolio.

It had Cannes Lions and the a FinTech.

Conference called Money 2020.

Money 2020 is one of the largest
and most recognized fin financial

technology conferences in the world.

So people come there, they talk
about the future of payments,

the future of technology, how
Web3 is changing the world.

All of these things is a
stage you want to be on.

It's a place where new
technology is debuted.

Heads of banks are talking.

It's a big deal.

So there's a company in
the UK called Informa.

Informa is one of the largest specialized
knowledge companies in the world.

These are the guys behind
Taylor and Francis.

So that's like a really
big book publishing.

So if you've ever been in school,
a lawyer, a doctor, these guys

probably made your textbook and
made you suffer and it was hard.

Side of the business also
operates their own conferences.

So these guys have Monaco Yacht
Week, which I would love to go to.

They have London Tech Week.

They have Black Hat, which is a
cybersecurity conference, really big.

So in 2023, they made it through the
pandemic and they were like, look, we

need to get our investors some bread back.

So they messed around and sold
a few of their businesses that

were around data and technology.

So they came back with a bunch of money.

Then they went on a buying spree.

At the end of 2024, they looked at
the market and were like, we're gonna

do our biggest acquisition ever.

We're gonna buy Ascential.

The company that owns cans and Money
20/20 CEO said, the reason we're

gonna buy this is because we believe
these are underpriced assets and

we can actually bundle 'em into our
business to create deeper extensions.

Because we just added in the
foremost advertising and media

conference and the world's biggest
financial technology conference.

So now we have a five piece.

We have advertising and marketing.

We have financial technology, we
have luxury, we have the future of

technology, and we have cybersecurity.

So if you want to come, listen, hear,
understand, or present what's new,

what's coming, what's exciting or what
matters, you have to come through us.

And since people already know about it, it
doesn't matter if you know who informa is.

It only matters if you know
what the conference is.

And so at scale, the point I'm trying
to make here is that the thing that

has value is not the thing that is
often seen as valuable in the moment.

It's compounded over time by who
comes, who continues to care, and

who can place a price on that value.

Because these events give out credibility.

That's their product.

You spoke on stage, you're a speaker.

It's what Ted figured out.

Ted is also a convening,
but it's also a noun.

I'm a TED speaker.

I gave a TED talk.

These are actually part of our lexicon.

As adults, like we know
what a TED talk is.

Being in the room at TED is also a thing.

Not everyone can do, but anyone
can watch a TED talk, which means

that the product has distribution
built in even if the room is small.

So the stage feels bigger because the
talk travels further than the event.

Carl Joseph-Black : Yeah.

'cause , you're not, you are
not just talking to the stage.

Well actually the world is the stage.

Correct.

The world is the stage.

Like sure there's people in front of
you, but you talking on planet Earth.

Because you don't know where
your talk is gonna end up.

Um, the So informa actually
is interesting to me.

So it sounds like to be, at least Informa
is like the McGraw Hill of Europe.

Mm-hmm.

If that makes any sense.

Huge.

And them deciding, yo, we're gonna
kind of make this investment.

Like in terms of actual returns, what
does that look like for them so far?

Jonathan Jackson: It's interesting.

So at the time of the deal essentials
fiscal 2023 ebitda, I believe.

Yeah.

It was around 72 million or so.

Right.

So that's earning before
taxes and depreciation.

They were purchased for $1.2

Carl Joseph-Black : billion, US or pounds.

Jonathan Jackson: Oh, sterling.

So it's 1.5 billion us.

Yeah.

If you were to take that margin, if
you were to imply the margin, that's

an X multiple on, on their, on their.

So what that means is that Informa looked
around and said, this is so underpriced,

we would rather pay a maximum premium
because of what we can do with this thing

that is publicly known as a conference.

Somewhere privately owning
that asset is worth paying a

premium in the public market.

'cause both of these are publicly traded
to completely consume the business, to

then actually start rolling up a whole
new division, which is about festivals.

And then you get into this
arbitrage global game, which

is, okay, how can we scale this?

So we're in France, but are there
other places we might want to go,

or we might wanna license what
we do here in an ecosystem that

doesn't necessarily have this?

What would be the cost
of entering that market?

Since we own the ip, why
wouldn't we just license it?

We don't even have to go at this point.

They will just pay a tax for
us to lend the credibility.

That, in my opinion, is why you
look at a business like that, that

can gather the biggest firms in the
world for a week or two weeks in

a tiny town in France to transact.

It's like the value of
that is immeasurable.

It's kept going for as long as possible.

It's perpetuated by people choosing to go.

Carl Joseph-Black : That's, I think
the other thing that's also interesting

to that is that it's because people
have, because people are going, it's

not necessarily subject to social
media and the algorithm, right?

Like it's a business in its own and
it'll always be a business on its own.

And Sure.

Like people can go online and say,
all right, can cans wasn't good

this year or money 2020 wasn't
all that next this year, but like,

you still going next year, right?

And if you don't go, you know,
what you missing next year.

So I wonder if that's something
that they're also making a bet on.

Jonathan Jackson: I think also
you can also go and say that, so

the irony of like, like the irony
of critique of events at scale is

that is can watch from outside.

You can be there, but no one is.

Keeping you from your opinion.

So the worst thing about a convenience
is to be apathetic about it.

It's not to hate it because
if you went and did a review,

the same thing with music.

If you went and did a review of an
album that sucked, you still listened

to the album to know it sucked.

So if you went all the way to an
event to be like, yo, this was trash.

I didn't like it.

It was overpriced.

The flaming yawn wasn't good.

You are still telling me about the thing.

So either way, I take it like I win.

Actually, if I think about it at
the macro, 'cause someone else was

like, I had the time of my life.

It was awesome.

I met someone I never knew I got a job.

Both of these things exist concurrently.

All I care about is not
having you be apathetic.

I don't want to hear, man.

Because the thing is, if you really do
this well, you're not for everybody.

So when you're not for everybody,
you can choose who you're for and

serve them, which will inevitably
piss other people off, which is just

the byproduct of being in business.

And being a person that's like, Hey,
I'm not for everybody but who I'm for.

They know it.

And if you want to come, no problem.

Here's the fee of entry.

And I actually think in a world where
there is no friction, I can open my phone,

get on Instagram, there's no friction.

There is a demand for
certain kinds of friction.

There is an actual opportunity
to be like, actually no, no, no.

There's a gate here.

You can hop the gate, you
can run through the gate.

You, there's all kinds of gates.

You can have a lift gate, you
can have a you can have a door,

you can have a ring camera.

But like there is a respect for
having friction because if you

know it costs something to get
in, you treat it differently.

This is why when business models are
freemium, it's like at a certain point you

treat it differently when you pay for it,

right?

When you put your car down for a rental,
you know, if you do something to the

rental, they're gonna charge you.

So you don't want to get an accident
'cause it's not your hoopty.

I think events operate with the same
kind of framework around how do I

make sure that I can, if I'm bringing
you here, you know it was a cost.

I know it's a cost in your attention.

So now we're actually in an agreement
that the cost for you coming here is

gonna, I'm gonna meet and exceed your
expectations by the quality of what I

give the experience or the thing I expose
you to that you couldn't get elsewhere.

That could be people, that could
be information, that could be

environment, but what's the price of
having a life changing conversation?

Is it $200?

Is it $400?

Is it 4,000?

Is it 10 band?

You can ask other people what
they were willing to pay for the

thing that changed their life.

And I think that's the power of
a convening in a world that's

algorithmically charged is like, I
had a altering experience by doing

this thing and it was worth it.

'cause now I have an.

Perspective or an outcome that
I didn't see coming that I

can actually take and apply.

And that's usually the promise
I think of, of a convening.

And it's the job of the convener
to actually present that.

That's part of the marketing is
like we are, this is one of our

promises is that you will leave with
something and our job is to prepare

you to leave with the right things.

Carl Joseph-Black : Yo,
you know what's crazy?

And now it makes sense why so many media
companies actually go into convenings.

Jonathan Jackson: Yeah.

Carl Joseph-Black : Because

on the internet right now,

digital media, like let's say if you're
like Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, New

York Times, like you have to constantly
write articles and constantly make news.

If you're in that business, it's
hard to, it's hard to even justify

people paying for the thing.

To begin with.

And the reason why is because there's
so many different sources where

people could get the information.

There's so many different
angles, so many different takes.

Like you might not even have the
most of the journalists anymore.

Yep.

Because they're all on
Substack or in their own joint.

So like, so if you are, if
you're Bloomberg, you go,

you make Ideas Festival.

Mm-hmm.

Like that can't be replicated.

The price is the price for that.

So in many real ways, what ends up
driving the business in a very real

way is actually the once, once a year
convening versus the everyday media thing.

And really what the everyday
media thing is, is about prepping

somebody for the next convening.

Jonathan Jackson: It's
prepping the right people.

Right.

So like New York Times has deal,
book, you would be hard pressed

to figure out how much a ticket to
deal book costs, how much is it?

They don't publicize it.

So you might find anything
from I've heard upwards of

20, a 20 piece for a ticket.

I've heard.

I've heard that's the regular

Carl Joseph-Black : joint

Jonathan Jackson: I, this is again,
and like we can fact check it in

and edit, but this is what I have
heard just by trying to find it.

But because of that, there are things
you can do to not advertise it.

So you can go and be like,
cool, here's what it is.

But you gotta think about who's
in the room at a conference

like DealBook where you see the
kind of speakers that are there.

You're paying for proximity, so you're
willing to do that because of the

kind of conversation you can have.

The side room conversation you
can have with the kind of person

who's gonna talk to Andrew Ross
Sorkin about what's going on,

because he writes a column
called the Corner Office.

So he's interviewing CEOs exclusively.

So deal book is an extension of
the thing you're used to reading.

If you read the New York Times.

It is simply the next outgrowth
of the thing you have come to

understand as part of your diet.

So the difference is I got a diet here
for 30 minutes now I've got a conference.

That's my day.

But I've been primed for
a year to experience that.

So there's no real issue with
me going to this conference

'cause I know what I'm gonna get.

It's gonna be the same kind of
conversation except I'm in the room

now and I'm around other people,
some of my peers who are also CEOs

who also took time out of their
busy schedule to come to this thing.

So now we're leveled.

'cause if you're in the room,
I don't ask how you got in.

It's not the club, right?

The there section culture is cooked.

If you paid for it, you're in the section.

So I don't worry about how
you got in, which allows me to

have a different conversation.

This is why the show
succession hits so hard.

'cause if you remember, most of the
deals never happened across the table.

They're at a random media
conference in the Foothills.

They're a castle, they're on a boat.

It's like the context.

We're still transacting
no matter where we are.

And so I think that's why design is one
of those critical elements when you think

about this, like what is the physical
architecture of the environment that

people are gonna feel comfortable in?

What are the chairs feel like?

How is the stage set up?

What are the refreshments like?

All that stuff matters because
it's about people holistically

feeling good in the space, like
people design their homes for this.

This is why interior design is such
a massive industry because how I feel

in your space affects how I behave.

And so if I'm getting you, if
you paid, then the minute I

walk through these doors, every
experience I have is a touch point.

The ticket's a touch point,
the moment's a touch point.

The vendors in the parking
lot are a touch point.

All that stuff reflects on
the quality of the event.

That's the recap.

Now in this world, like you have creators
as correspondence, as extenders of these

events, as interviewers doing long form.

And so now the whole thing is immersive
because a camera was there the whole time.

So I can see what it looks
like, what it felt like.

I can do, man, on the ground interviews.

So I have a whole different media
strategy, which means my design

needs to be a one because I should be
presuming everyone's gonna come and

I couldn't invite the whole world.

But they're gonna see something.

So what do I want them to see?

How do I want them to see it?

What do I want them to feel and touch?

What what is the texture feel like?

So they can get ready for next year
if they came and if they missed, I

can't actually afford to miss it.

That's crazy.

I need to be there.

Like I'm, I'm bugging, like
I'm gonna, this is the budget

we, no, we allocated already.

We gotta go 'cause our
competitor is cooking right now.

We didn't even know they could do that.

How do we get that person?

So I think that's part of why it's such
a strong apparatus and why I think people,

because these events are people driven.

It's the speaker, it's the person
hosting, it's the story of the founder.

All this stuff is about people
gathering to have a conversation.

So that's why it's like an album.

It's like you can pick a beat
or you can pick a producer.

You pick a producer, you gonna have a
different kind of experience, right?

It's like hit boy and Nas like,
you know what hit boy sounds like?

And you know how Nas rap.

So like they come together and
they create a specific sound.

That's why I think this part of
the business is so valuable because

you can't just recreate a sound.

You can't just make another culture con.

You can't just make another architect.

What you can do is be like, here's what's
missing, which is crazy 'cause that

means the incumbent makes it easier for
the entry person to then expand the pie.

'cause you then, if someone has been
there long enough, they're institution.

Someone else gets to be like, oh, no, no,
no, we only serve this line of people.

And that line of people goes, oh, so
that's like a conference, like just

for people like me, like no problem.

This is just for like
engineers, like audio engineers.

Like I'm at an audio engineer
conference and we're talking about

like, how do make everybody sound
crispy and like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We like we go to that.

But like this is our thing.

Like this is our thing.

We want, these are the people
we think are top of the top.

These are the engineers
we want to hear from.

And everyone in the room is
agreed about what quality means.

And that's why I think this industry
is gonna continue to perpetuate in

an age where the algorithms deciding
it and people go, no, no, no, no, no.

Actually this is a person
that deserves to be here.

And like we're gonna, we're gonna
listen to this person tell us.

'cause they're like one of us.

So there's an affinity network you can
start to build where people go, nah, like

that's the kind of person I wanna be with.

That's the kind of person that
does that at the highest level.

Carl Joseph-Black : I think about
creators wanting, wanting to kind

of get into this space, right?

Because obviously, you know, this
entire season we've been kind

of speaking to them so far, and

so you kind of brought up a little bit
earlier about how they're being integrated

into it as extensions of the story.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm also wondering if, well, not
even if, 'cause I've seen this done

before where what you do is instead
of creating your own conference, you

just create a part, you create an
experience that is associated or is

aligned with the actual convening.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Like we saw that with Afro Tech
buying RB House party, right?

Mm-hmm.

And just integrating it into, but like,
like that's actually a space that you

can kind of get into if you're a creator.

If you're saying, Hey, there's
already an existing convening that.

Is tapped in with the audience.

Mm-hmm.

That I already speak to as a creator.

Yeah, sure.

Like it's gonna be really difficult
to build a convening from the

ground up, and I'm not really trying
to have like the same level of

frequency as like a lecture's on tap.

You are like, yo, you know what?

Every year that we have a culture con, I'm
throwing the culture con creator fest or

whatever that's going within it, right?

Mm-hmm.

That's running the same
time, running the same week.

And it's literally, if you're
there, you're here too, right?

Or um, or.

We see some promoters do this
when it comes to parties.

They're like, yo, I'm
throwing the after party.

But now, like what the conferences have
or the convenings have started to do is

they've started like I mentioned earlier,
they started buying the after party and

integrating it into the actual experience.

So if you're a creator, that's actually
a nice little angle that you could play

a game with and say, Hey what if I
just wanted to meet with my community

inside of this larger community?

Right.

'cause you know communities
are all subjective.

If you're, yeah, sure.

You go to Comic-Con, and Comic-Con
is all a comics, but like, you wanna

throw a party for Spider-Man fans.

Right.

But then that Spider-Man fan party becomes
so crazy that like Comic-Con is like, yo,

like we kind of want to integrate you
into this thing as a permanent fixture.

Are there some other ways that
you've seen folks kind of integrated

themselves or like what other.

I guess I'm gonna just create a word,
I'm gonna just call side missions, right?

I'm gonna call it side
missions for this, right?

But have you seen other ways that
that's been integrated or just

ways that I haven't thought about

Jonathan Jackson: yet?

So ESPN just did this.

That's really crazy.

So ESPN, obviously Monday night
Football game day, like college

football's an interesting opportunity
to talk about convenings too,

because there's a season, right?

So everywhere, all over the
country, people are gathering

in stadiums to watch football.

There are, there's a word called
sort of monocultural events.

These are events that sort of massive
amounts of people pay attention to.

So think the Olympics Super Bowl the
Canelo and Terrance Crawford fight

things that sort of the world leans into
ESPN hired a girl named Katie Feeney.

Recently Katie Feeney went to Penn
State, and while there built a massive

following, about 14 million people
doing sideline reporting on football.

So ESPN goes, okay, so there is.

The dead internet theory, which
essentially is this idea that there is a

limit to the amount of human beings that
could be on the internet at any given time

because there's a finite amount of people.

Okay?

In that reality, how can we start
reaching people who wouldn't

normally just watch ESPN, right?

Which means we probably have to get a
bit younger, or who wouldn't typically

watch football in the same way we
typically might consume it, right?

They might not sit down and
watch four quarters, but they

are on TikTok and they do follow
people, and they do follow Katie.

So we are gonna hire her not as talent
as a correspondent, just like the other

ex-players we have, and we're gonna
put her on the field with a phone.

And a camera team.

And she's gonna walk around with
her audience live and capture not

just content, but series player
interviews and we're gonna expose

them to a brand new side of ESPN.

So you could say that like she's talent,
but that would be a misnomer because

talent's just like, Hey, I'm on stage.

I get a deal.

This is a person with an audience.

So she's in partnership with
ESPN because you cannot buy

the 14 million people she has.

She built them.

So what you can do is extend
your IP through her, which

means you have to transact.

So this is one of the ways I'm starting
to see creators not think about

themselves simply as like, oh, I'm talent.

It's No, no, no, no.

My audience is hyper valuable
because I'm teaching them something.

So them watching football with me
is different than them watching

football with Ryan Clark.

'cause I'm me.

So that's actually a very different
introduction to the game, the

parts of the game, who I am.

And so they have an affinity
for me and through me they can

get an affinity for the game.

And I think that to me is also another
way to think about like my unique

perspective could give someone access to
something they wouldn't normally watch.

But because I'm there, they might watch
through me as a passive participant,

which then could make them interested in
the game generally because they realize

that, oh, there's a place for me here.

This isn't as complicated.

Oh, these rules actually make sense.

Oh, that's what, a fourth.

And what like there's a whole
world of people who might not

know the mechanics of the game,
but know the fashion of a player.

And what that means is that you can
actually bridge that gap between

something someone wouldn't care about,
something someone really cares about.

And that's a person, the bridger.

Now people.

It's not a brand, it's not an idea,
it's not a commercial, it's people.

So as a creator, think about
what you're a bridge to and think

about what toll you want to charge
people to cross that bridge, right?

Your audience is already
paying with that attention.

And so it's like, okay, cool.

But like there's another side of that
bridge that people aren't paying, which is

access to that audience that actually they
want to come to their side of the bridge.

And if you're smart about it, you can
actually transact on both sides and not

have to compromise yourself 'cause you
were already gonna go do that thing.

Now it's just how do you turn
the lights onto that thing?

So that, that to me is like one of the
most powerful examples I've seen of a

legacy media brand taking a pretty big
bet, but a really smart one to be like,

okay, like can we actually reimagine how
we cover this thing that we're gonna do

anyway with a person who did it at a high
level and she's fresh out of undergrad,

she's like, just graduated and like.

She's out here like, I'm
on ES, espn, I'm on camera.

And I think that's actually the
future of some of this even more

broadly, like correspondence.

It's like, what audience are you coming
with and how do we get access to it?

And it's like, you gotta pay.

You gotta pay.

So what are they paying with
and how are they paying you?

Carl Joseph-Black : What I,
so I ain't know about that.

That's actually really interesting.

'cause what I was originally thinking
was just a creative setting up shop

within and or around the convening.

But you're saying, yo, like actually you
could build such a strong audience on

your own that like the convening will
want to integrate you into the convening

without you even having to be there prior.

Because , you are actually
talking about the subject matter.

Or you're actually tapped into an
audience that we wanna tap into.

It's like a very interesting way
to at least increase the audience

size of that particular event.

So , if you wanted to get another
14 million viewers of the Super

Bowl or of that game, you're
like, let's just call Katie.

And I think that's pretty dope.

It's also, I think it's about
changing the idea of yourself from

talent to distribution network.

Like your distribution network.

Like there, like you are , a node through
which people can experience a new thing.

And so I think , it's just a
mindset shift of being like,

I don't just have an audience.

I'm creating something, but I'm also
distributing it because I have trust

and because I have trust, people care
about what I say and how I say it.

So if you can actually make that
switch, you can start to see

different opportunities and you're
not just signing a talent deal.

You're signing a distribution
deal, so in a way, Katie's a label.

Yeah, right.

Like Katie's actually a label that
they are transacting to be like,

yo, we have this really interesting
product and we need to license it.

And Katie's , cool.

I have this audience who I have
curated, nurtured through my collegiate

experience, and is now not just
excited, but like I'm idiots, espn.

Like it's my job.

Like the world, the lore she can create.

Being at the game, talking to
people behind the scenes at ES,

espn, there's whole new shows.

There's whole new ip.

That she gets to executive produce,
not just be talent, but produce on

like there's a whole world of earning
opportunity when that shift happens

because of the audience she built and how
she built and how sticky they are and how

she approaches the game, how she talks
about football, how she asks questions.

People are, we are associated with people.

This is the same with Oprah.

It wasn't just that Oprah interview
people, it was how Oprah did it.

What Oprah talked about, how she sits
people down in her garden with her

massive fruit, like that's her thing.

And so we became not just associate
with Oprah, but you're in Oprah's

Garden, like you're having a
conversation with Oprah in that place.

This is the same model, just positioned
differently for things we normally do.

And I actually think we're
gonna see more and more of that.

And I think that's one of the
opportunities is to take a little

bit of a mindset shift and be like,
who am I distributing information to?

What do they find value in and how can I
actually create an attraction for people

who want to reach these people who are
actively trying to, but don't have a

me or don't have a context that I have?

And that's, that's what I think is
these platforms have constraints.

There's like an upper limit to
sort of what you can do depending

on what the platform does.

And so I think one of the possibilities
about convenings or being a distributor

as a creator is to get outside those
platform constraints in a certain way.

And to develop the ability to gather
people around an idea, a topic or

a feeling, and to test that out.

Like I think that's one of the most
powerful things you can do right now is to

feel like, can I put 30 people in a room
to talk about something for two hours?

What would they wanna talk about?

What would they pay for?

What matters to them?

Can I serve these people offline
in a way that makes 'em excited

to tell people they were here?

And I think if you can do that
enough and get that information.

You can actually build anything.

At least the way, the way I'm
hearing what you're saying is

like, being only digital is risky.

Like if you're only digital, that's
actually the highest risk to your

business because the moment that
things in the digital landscape change,

that's the end of your business.

Jonathan Jackson: It's the
end of the audience growth.

You know how this goes?

Like you get an algorithm
tweak on YouTube or you get,

something happens on Instagram.

They're not prioritizing comments or the
way they're prioritizing videos changes.

It's a pandemic.

, It's a chaos.

I remember, I think it was last year
where like Instagram was down for an hour

or something like that and people lost
their minds, and that's because I'm using

this to transact , and that's borrowed
land no matter how we talk about it.

No matter what platform you're
watching this podcast on,

like it's borrowed, right?

So even the way you want to
think about this stuff, it's

not that you shouldn't be here.

You should get everything
you can out of it.

But there is a point where people are
interested in different formats and

things that are physical and things
that are real and things you can touch.

And it's like there's the opportunity
to create those experiences

that are unique to you that you
can build a community around.

And I think that to me
is the art of this thing.

That's the art of business building
is like what can I uniquely create

that enables me and my audience to get
closer together around something that

they value and I have an expertise
at, and they feel like I'm giving them

something they can't get somewhere else.

And that to me is the fun of it, is
like if you can figure that out, man,

like it doesn't matter what Dao Go does.

'cause you can get in contact with those
people directly and those people, you

have a trusted experience with them.

And so it's like, okay, no matter what's
going on, like I know they want to gather

and I know they want to talk about this
kind of stuff, so I'm gonna show up

in a way that they are used to seeing.

Maybe they don't, they're not
seeing me in the same way anymore.

Or , maybe I got , I'm shadow banned
or all these other things that happened.

It's like, yeah, but I can meet
people and they can come see me.

Carl Joseph-Black : Yo.

Honestly, I think that's it.

That's the final bar.

That's what somebody really needs
to hear in order for them to kind

of get into thinking about what
they should build or that they at

least should be trying to do that.

You know what I mean?

So, so that's it for this episode.

I'm Card Joseph Black.

That's Jonathan Jackson.

Don't follow me, don't follow him.

Don't follow us.

Just follow the money.

We'll see y'all.

The British Narrator : We came from

Due Dilly is research and hosted
by Carl Joseph Black and Jonathan

Jackson, audio engineering and
camera operation by Wolf Taylor.

Video editing by Sean
Ferra and Stefan Lawrence.

Illustration and design by the RO Arts.

Filmed on location at WTF Media
Studios in New York City and I'm

your reliable British narrator,
born and raised in South London.

For deeper insights and
context, visit do the dili.com.

That's D-U-E-T-H-E-D-I-L-L y.com.

See you next time.